Curse

Isileth · Dec 19, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Account-wide grind isn't necessarily more or less grind, just more choice in which character to grind on and no choice as to what character that grind applies to. I think what you want is more along the lines of "scale character grind down by 75%".

The point is grind doesnt require skill. Even if you can only get 1 point before you wipe, you would slowly get there.
Unlike something skill based in which you need to complete all goals in 1 go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

By that reasoning, a freshly created PvE character should start out at level 20 with access to all the towns you've ever visited on another character in your account. You're going to get there anyway and you know what's lying in wait, so why not just pretend you can't access those towns and endgame areas yet until you see fit as per progress in the plot?

I wouldnt have a problem with that. If people wanted to play through it in order and only access things when they would of with their first char they could.

Those players that wish to go about it a different way could as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Whether you want to admit it or not, grinding is a choice. Obviously you would agree that these skills aren't needed to enjoy the game (otherwise whether to use them or not wouldn't be a choice), and as for others who claim or pretend that these skills are needed to play the game, anyone who remembers playing in a time when these skills didn't even exist is going to know how full of crap they are.

It is ultimately up to the player to decide whether having PvE skills at a particular power level is worth spending time grinding up the corresponding title(s). All this argument does is to have some players make a choice so that others won't have to.

Ive made this reply many times, in this thread and others. So im just going to briefly touch on it, you can check back for it if you really want to read it.

Nothing is needed in the game.

Everything is a choice.

You dont have to complete it.
You dont have to do mission x.

So straight away using need and choice as a means for an argument already stumbles into a very grey area thats best to avoid.

As for grind content.

If you couldnt access mission X without first killing 500 drakes, thats content you have to grind to access. You dont need to grind it, because you dont need to access it. But its part of the game as a whole and not accessing it is obviousely not as good as having access.

This means you get rewarded for grinding.

The argument that you dont need to do it doesnt apply. Because nothing ingame is needed, you dont even need to play.

As for grind advantages.

You dont need max weapons.
You dont need max armor.
You dont need 8 skills.

You also dont need pve skills.

But that doesnt stop the fact that the player with a max pve skill has an advantage over a player without.

Just because something isnt needed, doesnt negate the fact that it gives an advantage.

If GW was just another everyday MMO where they reward and enforce time>skill by giving those who grind better weapons and stats then I wouldnt be here having this discussion. Infact I wouldnt be playing at all.

Im here because GW is advertised as skill>time.

Yet slowly more advantages have been introduced for those who grind. Putting players who dont at a disadvantage.

You do not need those advantages. But having advantages...gives you an advantage.

zamial · Dec 19, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Im here because GW is advertised as skill>time.

The truth is: GW WAS advertised as skill>time. That is no longer the case.

I have been thinking about this thread and instead of making all titles account based, which will not ever happen. I think players need:

"The ultimate god like supreme star of transference"- what it does is:
TRANSFER 1 title from 1 character to another character on the same account, that does not have that title maxed. It is customized so it can not be sold and is limited to 1 per character. It spawns from a chest in your HoM after you complete all legendary guardian, skill hunter, and vanquisher titles.If you already have done this your chest is there.

This item would passify all the title whine threads, then no one on the forums would have anything to complain about, at least title wise and there may actually be a moment of peace but that is as likely to happen as this posters original post, or my item being put in the game.

Isileth · Dec 19, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

The truth is: GW WAS advertised as skill>time. That is no longer the case.

From the Guild Wars Prophecies box that is still sold.

Quote:

Your Skill Will Be Your Legend
You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate, Whether battling horrific monsters or competeting at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat.

From the Guild Wars website

Quote:

Experience the game that has captivated millions of gamers worldwide. Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that rewards player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

Now while the box is obviousely old and therefore you can argue it no longer applies. The Guild Wars site is updated. It still states GW is skill>time.

Its also mentioned in interviews with members of Anet.

It is still very much advertised as skill>time.

SleetDragon · Dec 19, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

The truth is: GW WAS
"The ultimate god like supreme star of transference"- what it does is:
TRANSFER 1 title from 1 character to another character on the same account, that does not have that title maxed. It is customized so it can not be sold and is limited to 1 per character. It spawns from a chest in your HoM after you complete all legendary guardian, skill hunter, and vanquisher titles.If you already have done this your chest is there.

This item would passify all the title whine threads, then no one on the forums would have anything to complain about, at least title wise and there may actually be a moment of peace but that is as likely to happen as this posters original post, or my item being put in the game.

Unfortunately we don't live in that perfect of a world, and I certainly don't think we'll ever be lucky enough for either to happen.

zamial · Dec 19, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

That is an interesting spin on that sentence. lets examine that.

Experience the game that has captivated millions of gamers worldwide. Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that REWARDS player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

It says it rewards skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

Meaning, if I play the game instead of logging in and stand there, I get rewards.

Not all "rewards" are based on that statement. Birthday presents are a prime example that skill being greater has nothing to do with the time, to receive the reward. Also the variable of skill is in question, as in what is considered skill? how much skill do I need to gain rewards? ect.ect. It says nothing of the difference of basic skills vs. expert skills.

That Statement and others like it are quoted by some of this community like it was the 11th commandment or something equally as holy. It is also really left wide open to interpretation, probably for legal reasons.

So, we are know back to a statement on the back of a 2+ almost 3 year old game box, which we both agree is out of date.

Isileth · Dec 19, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Not all "rewards" are based on that statement. Birthday presents are a prime example that skill being greater has nothing to do with the time, to receive the reward. Also the variable of skill is in question, as in what is considered skill? how much skill do I need to gain rewards? ect.ect. It says nothing of the difference of basic skills vs. expert skills.

Birthday presents and such are just fluff. They dont effect gameplay in the slightest.
Achieving them doesnt require gameplay either.

Skill>time means there are no advantages for time spent. A mini pet is not an advantage. Nor is it part of gameplay. Its really no different from rare weapon skins, fireworks and the event potions and such. Is there to make people go "ooh" and "ahh" at the shiny.

A title on the other hand (and im not refering to being able to display it, which is again an "ohh" "ahh" thing).

Im refering to achieving it. Achieving it is part of gameplay. The same way completing a mission is gameplay.

Currently those who play multiple chars miss out on going for KOABD, unless they have a lot more time of course.

It also means they have to grind even more to stay at the same level as everyone else.

While grind is gameplay, a lot of people dont enjoy it. Those people buy games that advertise skill>time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

That Statement and others like it are quoted by some of this community like it was the 11th commandment or something equally as holy. It is also really left wide open to interpretation, probably for legal reasons.

So, we are know back to a statement on the back of a 2+ almost 3 year old game box, which we both agree is out of date.

As I said, its on the box, its on the site (that is updated and therefore not out of date) and also mentioned in interviews.

Its quoted so often because of how relevant it is.

Its also very clear. "It will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

Dont get me wrong, they have every right to change it. But this is the suggestion forum. And im suggesting that its changed back.

******

Just also noticed this thread, I imagine mostly due to my replies, is getting into the very broad topic of skill>time rather than just focusing on the titles.

So to get it back on topic my summary really is.

Its the player behind all their chars. Grind is the same grind everytime. Thats what grind is. Repeating it all again is stupid and annoying.

zamial · Dec 19, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Im refering to achieving it. Achieving it is part of gameplay. The same way completing a mission is gameplay.

That is the EXACT REASON I am against this. I paid for the GAME PLAY.
Not some do it 1 time it is done for good B.S. game. Why does my game play experience need to be tainted by a DIFFERENT character? My warrior is not my monk the GAME PLAY is different, I don't want to loose my paid for GAME PLAY because of a few people how are holding time>skill like it is the holy grail. GW1 will be up for a LOOOOOONG time and I for 1 want the opportunity to play it for a Loooooooong time. I paid for my content and it really pisses me off that other people are crying trying to take it away, and yes you are!!!!! I want EVERY INDIVIDUAL character to be played as if it where being played for the 1st time. in other words I am against this 110%.

ShadowsRequiem · Dec 19, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

/signed some titles should be made account wide.

Lightbringer points and alike I loathe as I will never get over lvl 3 in lightbringer because of the grind. And to have to get it on multiple players is even worse.

Turtle222 · Dec 19, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

no dont do it - grind based titles are there to keep gw even longer. Anet wants its players to think "i must do this for all my characters to truly finish gw"

ShadowsRequiem · Dec 19, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

no dont do it - grind based titles are there to keep gw even longer. Anet wants its players to think "i must do this for all my characters to truly finish gw"

or you could just play the game for fun.

freekedoutfish · Dec 19, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

/signed some titles should be made account wide.

Lightbringer points and alike I loathe as I will never get over lvl 3 in lightbringer because of the grind. And to have to get it on multiple players is even worse.

You'l never get over rank 3 lightbringer?

Thats only 1500 points to rank 4!

You can make 650 points alone from farming the The Sulfurous Wastes on one run alone, which can take about 5-10 minutes at the most! Thats around 4k points an hour! Seriously, have you even tried?

Lightbringer points are extremely easy to make (as are sunspear points), you just have to farm them at The Sulfurous Wastes. LB and SS points only start getting frustrating to farm when you choose to aim for higher ranks (far above rank 4) which can only be done in HM.

But even then, your only talking a few weeks for a hour a night to achieve those max levels. I know because I did it and they were maxed out within 2 or 3 weeks of trying. No hardcoreness at all. All casual point farming.

Did you seriously mean rank 3 or was that a miss-type?

I think you need to read http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lightbringer_rank and http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lightbringer_point_farming. You seem a bit confused about exactly how hard LB points are to make!

Comments like that really worry me as to whether people are even trying before they make posts or comments like "attaining this title takes soo much grind". This just proves some players either are confused or arent even trying! Thats like someone saying it takes grind to make 1000 gold before they have even reached a high end area and realised gold drops increase.

The same goes for low ranks in GWEN, which truly dont take long to reach at all from just playing the quests and dungeons and taking bounties. Yes higher ranks take more effort, but thats your choice.

We have resources like the wiki to help make titles easier to farm and increase, and you need to check these things before you throw the book in and start saying "ahhhh it takes too much time and grind" when you obviously havent even tried.

Isileth · Dec 19, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

That is the EXACT REASON I am against this. I paid for the GAME PLAY.
Not some do it 1 time it is done for good B.S. game. Why does my game play experience need to be tainted by a DIFFERENT character? My warrior is not my monk the GAME PLAY is different, I don't want to loose my paid for GAME PLAY because of a few people how are holding time>skill like it is the holy grail. GW1 will be up for a LOOOOOONG time and I for 1 want the opportunity to play it for a Loooooooong time. I paid for my content and it really pisses me off that other people are crying trying to take it away, and yes you are!!!!! I want EVERY INDIVIDUAL character to be played as if it where being played for the 1st time. in other words I am against this 110%.

And you still would get it all.

As I said, all the advantages can be turned off and not used.
You can still spend 4 hours a day farming rep if you want.
You still have access to that gameplay.

The difference would be those who dont want to spend ages grinding dont have to yet can still remain at the same level as those who do.

MithranArkanere · Dec 20, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

no dont do it - grind based titles are there to keep gw even longer. Anet wants its players to think "i must do this for all my characters to truly finish gw"

Currently I'm thinking "I will never be able to max the grind titles of the characters I use more before GW2 comes up", unless I play 10 hours a day.

And sorry, I have to sleep. After vanquishing all areas and making all missions, dungeons and quests in normal and hard mode, with some additional kills, people should have all the 6 grind titles title maxed. Yet they will still be far from it, probably just one or two of them.

quickmonty · Dec 20, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Grinding? LOL!

GW is a game. It is voluntary. If you want an example of grind read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. Having to work every day for barely enough to stay alive. That's grind! You people have no idea what "grind" truly is.

MithranArkanere · Dec 20, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

'Grind' is making the very same thing again and again...

Well.. that's not the dictonary entry, but here it has that meaning.

tmr819 · Dec 20, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Grinding? LOL!

GW is a game. It is voluntary. If you want an example of grind read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. Having to work every day for barely enough to stay alive. That's grind! You people have no idea what "grind" truly is.

Oh, yes, I do.

According to Webster's Dictionary, "grind" is defined as, among other things, "to rotate the hips in an erotic manner".

I'm totally in favor of that.

My warrior does this quite well. The problem is that I cannot get Lightbringer rep that way....

But, seriously, requiring players in a game, which by definition is supposed to be entertaining and fun, to do something that is inherently monotonous and boring for the sole purpose of gaining ranks is bad enough. Forcing them to repeat this totally-mindless-and-not-fun chore (i.e., "grinding" in gaming terms) on multiple characters only adds insult to injury, as the old saying goes, imo.

That said, I can live with the system we have now. I only wish, as I stated somewhere earlier in this thread, that ArenaNet would generalize the bounties in Nightfall the way they are in EotN so players would only need to pick up one bounty per region (Sunspear or Lightbringer) instead of the very annoying "species-specific" system they have now.

freekedoutfish · Dec 20, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

But, seriously, requiring players in a game, which by definition is supposed to be entertaining and fun, to do something that is inherently monotonous and boring for the sole purpose of gaining ranks is bad enough. Forcing them to repeat this totally-mindless-and-not-fun chore (i.e., "grinding" in gaming terms) on multiple characters only adds insult to injury, as the old saying goes, imo.

Whos forcing anyone to do anything?

Which titles do Anet force you to grind? You could only argue they force you to increase kurzack, luxon and sunsper titles. But the levels needed for those before you can proceed, are very easily attained.

Any ranks above the required ones to proceed ingame are completely optional. Just as other titles are completely optional. You only need to increase GWEN titles if you want armor or weapons and those are optional, but even rank 5 on all titles in GWEN are accomplished by just playing the game.

Aside from those 3 mentioned, no titles are forced upon you and NO titles force you to max them out.

Stop trying to suggest otherwise. Any reason you may have to max them out is your choice and your opinion. Your not forced to max anything ingame.

Isileth · Dec 20, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Whos forcing anyone to do anything?

Which titles do Anet force you to grind? You could only argue they force you to increase kurzack, luxon and sunsper titles. But the levels needed for those before you can proceed, are very easily attained.

Any ranks above the required ones to proceed ingame are completely optional. Just as other titles are completely optional. You only need to increase GWEN titles if you want armor or weapons and those are optional, but even rank 5 on all titles in GWEN are accomplished by just playing the game.

Aside from those 3 mentioned, no titles are forced upon you and NO titles force you to max them out.

Stop trying to suggest otherwise. Any reason you may have to max them out is your choice and your opinion. Your not forced to max anything ingame.

Again on this.

When everything is optional and nothing is required you have to take force and need in a different manner.

To access some parts of the game, you need to grind.

You dont need to access those parts of the game. But to access them you need to grind.

The fact is thats part of the game that is closed to anyone that doesnt want to grind. Its all well and good saying, "Its your choice, just dont do it". But thats part of the game missed out on.

Thats why people dislike it.

They either grind, which isnt fun.
Or they miss part of the game, which isnt fun.

So a lot of people would prefer no restrictions or restrictions based on fun skillful gameplay. For example having to defeat some tyrant that is killing race x. Once achieved you then get all the rewards from them.

Rather than the current style of
Some tyrant is killing race x. Kill 10,000 of the tyrants men.

Repeating the exact same gameplay over and over isnt fun. Especially when it limits you when compared to someone who has done it.

lyra_song · Dec 20, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

*sets thread on fire*

This thread is turning into a grind.
Everyone's saying the same thing over and over. :\

freekedoutfish · Dec 20, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Again on this.

When everything is optional and nothing is required you have to take force and need in a different manner.

To access some parts of the game, you need to grind.

lol, what parts ingame require grind (or HUGE grind) from titles to access?

Armor and weapons in GWEN only needs rank 5 which can be achieved from simply doing quests and dungeons.
Kurzack and luxon needs 10k to proceed in factions, which takes about 30 minutes of playing AB.
Sunspear points to proceed in NF, which are VERY easily attained from doing quests in NF on the noob island.
PVE only skills which you access from a skill trader, as a quest reward or only require a tiny 3k K/L faction to exchange for them! (The ranks only make them more powerfull, they dont stop you attaining them.)

So again what "part" of the game are you stopped from accessing due to titles? Any tiny restrictions are very easily attained as mentioned above and cant be considered a barrier to anything due to that.

Whether you then choose to max those titles if your choice. You only need rank 5 GWEN for armor and weapons NOT MAX. You only need the first rank sunspear to proceed NOT MAX. You only need 10k K/L faction to proceed, NOT MAX. Is Anet forcing you to MAX those titles? No!

You can access the pve only skills easily, as to whether you want them maxed is your choice!